#66: Pulling the thread
Q&A with social entrepreneur, author, and podcast host Dr. Anne-Marie Imafidon MBE
Hello!
Pass It On is back after a summer break, and we’re kicking off the new season with a bang. Allow me to introduce Dr. Anne-Marie Imafidon MBE.
Anne-Marie is a computer science and maths prodigy turned social entrepreneur. After passing A-Levels at age 11 and obtaining a Master’s degree at 20, Anne-Marie began forging an enviable CV at Goldman Sachs, Hewlett-Packard, and Deutsche Bank. But a few years into her career, Anne-Marie had an awakening about the science and tech community. The result was Stemettes, the award-winning social initiative she co-founded to inspire and promote the next generation of young women and non-binary people in the STEM and STEAM sectors (Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, and Maths).
10 years on, Stemettes has impacted more than 60,000 young people across Europe, and Anne-Marie’s successes continue to soar. She was awarded an MBE in 2017, voted the most influential woman in tech in the UK in 2020, and now hosts the Evening Standard’s Women Tech Charge podcast. UK readers may also recognise Anne-Marie from Countdown, where she made history by becoming the first Black woman to co-host the iconic puzzle show while Rachel Riley was on maternity leave.
When I spoke to Anne-Marie in June, she was in full tour mode. (Her first book She’s in CTRL, a guidebook for women to take back tech, was released late last year and had recently launched in paperback.) But there were no signs of fatigue in her answers. Just genuine warmth, humble brilliance, and an enviable frankness. I left our conversation thinking: Anne-Marie is a force. A force for change, a force for good, a force for a generation. After reading this, I hope you will too.
At age 11, you were the youngest girl to pass A-level computing. By 20, you had a Master's in Computer Science and Maths from Oxford. Where did your love for these subjects come from?
My earliest memories are of being fascinated with the world around me and how it worked. I was obsessed with all kinds of devices in the home—like the washing machine and the VCR player. How could two identical cassette tapes on the outside play something completely different when put into the machine? How can the cassette reliably play The Lion King every time? I had to take the VCR apart.
One day, when I was about four years old, my Dad let me play on his computer. I started typing the story of Little Red Riding Hood and decided to change the cloak's colour from red to purple. Suddenly my idea, this little bit of me, was being carried by the technology. I could return to the computer the next day and the day after, and there it was, Little Purple Riding Hood. I was amazed by that. So the love came from following my curiosity, from peeling back the layers and pulling on the thread. It's a mindset I try to encourage in our Stemettes to this day. Go and tap on that button; go and right-click on this thing you see online and hit 'inspect'; see what's going on under the hood.
Let's talk more about Stemettes. What gave you the idea to start it?
The journey started in 2012. I call it the Road to Damascus. I was working in Tech for a large bank and got invited to speak on a panel at a US conference. So off I go, excited, not thinking much more of it. I arrive and realise I'm at a 3500-person conference, and all of them are women. Two major things hit me at once. One, I'm a woman in Tech. (I'd never been in an all-female tech environment in my life, and I'd never noticed until this moment.) Two, I'm a Black woman in Tech. Now, it's not like I wasn't used to being the youngest blackest female in the room; that was standard for me throughout my life. But something about being at that conference made me internalise these facts. Especially after one of the keynote speakers talked about women in Tech as a shrinking minority.
I get back to the UK and think: what if young women could experience what I experienced at that conference in their formative years? Could that help reverse the shrinking minority? With that thought, I drafted my first blog. I made it my 2013 new year's resolution to make some kind of change happen.
By the end of the first year, we were sat at a UK Cabinet Office education roundtable with Michael Gove and David Willetts. A year later, I left banking for good.
Hold up. How did you go from that first blog post to advising the UK Cabinet in less than a year?!
To be honest, I don't really know. Being invited to Number 10 wasn't exactly part of the plan. But I think two things worked in our favour. One, we were big on social media, much more invested than our peers. Two, we got lucky with the timing: STEM was top of the public education agenda when we were getting started.
I'm a classically-trained computer scientist and mathematician. At no point during my degree did we discuss the ethics or the social, moral, geographical, and societal implications of anything we were working on. As a medic, you have the Hippocratic Oath. But as a computer scientist? Nothing. Yet we're building tools that profoundly impact people's lives.
Stemettes exists to inspire and support girls, young women, and non-binary young people into Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, and Maths careers (aka STEAM subjects). I assume this means AI is high on your agenda. How do you view the pace of AI development?
There's little value in being upset at the pace. It's the classic: "If we don't do it, someone else will" argument.
What I am upset and frustrated about—and that frustration grows every day—is the quality of the work being done. When the people developing this life-changing tech turn around suddenly and say, "Actually, could we take a pause here?" "Could you governments just step in now and help us reign what we've already created?" I find that embarrassing. Better late than never, but embarrassing. It's like the guy who invented the infinite scroll later expressing concern about its impact on humanity.
What's embarrassing about this behaviour is the fact it's so avoidable. The people creating these technologies could have asked themselves these questions at the beginning. And if they had the right people in the room when they were doing so, at least half of those people would have shared five unsolicited things said to them that morning. Which would probably have made it obvious that we shouldn't be developing a technology that enables those unsolicited comments to happen millions of times per second. Once you bake the cake, you can't get the flour or the eggs back. So, for goodness sake, let's at least be sure we've got the right ingredients.
It's not too late for us to learn these lessons, but how many times do you want to make the same mistake? Simply because you know a lot about computer science and not a lot about anything else.
I'm a classically-trained computer scientist and mathematician. At no point during my degree did we discuss the ethics or the social, moral, geographical, and societal implications of anything we were working on. Yet we're building tools that profoundly impact people's lives. As a medic, you have the Hippocratic Oath. But as a computer scientist? Nothing. You're allowed, encouraged, to lean into your hubris.
Remember what Michelle Obama said about being in the room with all the world leaders? And how she was shocked to realise that they were not that smart. It's the same with computer scientists. They're not that smart. Because the questions they should be asking are not difficult or surprising. It's not that hard to fold checks into the system when building tech so that we avoid its unintended consequences.
In my book, I put forward the idea of building good tech habits. It starts by asking yourself the right questions at the beginning:
Just because we can make it, should we?
Who is this making things better for?
Is this maintaining the status quo or progressing it?
What does progressing on the status quo look like?
What role would this technology play?
This approach is at the heart of Stemettes. I don't want everyone to become a coder. Or an AI expert. I want everyone to be able to ask the right questions and hold institutions and organizations to account.
The point isn't that you go from sending emails to learning to code or even joining the tech industry. The point is that you understand enough to never be at the mercy of the technology around you.
In a recent blog about your book, you said it's time for women to get into the room where the decisions are made or, better still, create our own tech rooms. How do you propose women do that? Especially if they lack the confidence or means to do so.
Women have a lot more agency than we realise. Have you ever looked at the UK Government Essential Digital Skills Framework? Sending emails—that counts as digital literacy in the framework. You have more skills than you think.
But as I just said, the point isn't that you go from sending emails to learning to code or even joining the tech industry. The point is that you understand enough to never be at the mercy of the technology around you.
Imagine you're a solicitor working in a law firm. HR is bringing in a new platform to help with recruiting. Or managing cases. That's a real opportunity for you to start asking those good tech habit questions. Just because a colleague or leader wants to bring in new software doesn't mean you have to be at the mercy of their decision. Plenty of large companies have employee boards. Join yours if you have one. Get into that room and start asking questions.
You can build this muscle by being curious about the world around you:
Have you ever played with the settings on your microwave?
Or on your TV?
What about your phone settings?
Can you spot any similarities?
Start pulling on the thread a little. You'll be surprised by what you notice and what you see. And what you might want to change when you do.
Your first book She's In CTRL came out in 2022, and you're due to write a second. What did you learn from the experience, and what would you do differently next time?
First, I learned just how much of a privilege Tech's short feedback loops are. Tech's processes have evolved to give you continuous feedback; in book writing, it's the opposite. You write in the dark until the editor sees the draft; then, you write again until the public sees the finished article. It's such an alien process to me. Contrast it with school: you get weekly, daily feedback on your work so you can learn and grow. I haven't figured out how to solve this for the next book, but I'll need to change the approach somehow.
Second, I learned how differently people's minds work. The book is in a completely different order from the one I first wrote because my editor saw the story in a totally different light. And that's the challenge you're constantly navigating: how do I stay true to my vision while still being able to be something different for different people? I'm still in the learning phase with this one.
What do you wish the tech industry understood about the non-profit sector?
It's so hard to be funded as a non-profit, yet there's so much money in the tech industry. So if you want to help, help with funding. Giving cash is much more valuable than volunteering your time to implement a complicated technical solution without much context.
What three books or other media have impacted you most as a leader and why?
Invisible Women by Caroline Criado-Perez puts fire in your belly and makes you want to make change happen.
Smart Leadership by Jo Own has taught me how to create and grow leaders.
How to Win Friends and Influence People is the big one. Ultimately, being a leader is about having folks follow you. How can you expect people to follow you if you don't understand people? This book isn't about manipulating others; it's about manipulating yourself—building the habits needed to listen and understand others. Listening is the most underrated leadership skill.
More questions for Anne-Marie? Follow her on Instagram or Twitter.
Thanks so much for reading,
Lauren
Incredible! This was totally fascinating. Anne-Marie is a legend ❤️